Tithing

[Phil]

Okay, here's another issue that doesn't get talked about much! Just in the way we have recently begun to get teaching on the Holy Spirit (PTL for that cos I'm hungry!), what about teaching on tithing? I remember hearing a sermon once (not in our fellowship, but on TV) that drew on the Book of Malachi: Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, 'How have we robbed you?' In your tithes and contributions. (Mal 3:8).

I hope that someone has a view on this and we can get a discussion going. Also that our Elders will begin to check out this Forum and respond in whatever way the Spirit leads them.

[Matthy]

That's a topic that really gets very little if any attention in our Church. I know that this view is shared by other people who came to Ennis later than us. I still remember my astonishment when we first came to Ireland and saw how "secretly" the collection on Sunday was handled. I was used to collection plates (resp. bags) going round to collect the offerings. It was then explained to me (not by an Irish person ...) that this is a very delicate matter in Ireland. Nobody wants to give the impression that the Church is "looking for money"... I think collection still reminds people of the oppression by the catholic church, and is not yet seen as a "normal" function within Church.

If we want to understand what God wants from His children of the "New Covenant", we have to look into what He says in the New Testament. And it seems the NT doesn't talk much about this! However, we can certainly use the lessons from the OT to teach on our lack of commitment in this issue.

As far as I can see, the NT doesn't mention tithing as a law for our life. We know that we are not longer "under the law". I think Galatians 2:11-21 and the whole chapter 3 make it very clear that we "died" to the law (Gal 2:19) and now follow a new law, the "law of grace" (Joh 1:17; Ro 6:14; 2 Cor 9:8).

What does that mean in relation to tithing? I believe it means that I'm not bound to give 10 % of my income to God, but now I CAN give Him much more! So whatever God puts into my heart, I will gladly offer - it's not longer a claim, it's a voluntary gift! Phil 4:18 calls it a a "... fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God". (See also Phil 4:10-18!)

Initially, we see that the new believers in Acts 2 - 4 "... had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need." (Acts 2:44; Acts 4:34-35) However, we also see later in church history, that the believers in Jerusalem became very poor and had to be supported by other Churches abroad!

I think the most relevant passage in the NT about "giving" is in 2 Cor 9:6-7: "He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

[Phil]

Not having much experience or background in these matters, what I'm about to say might be quite wrong, but I see the weekly collection plate (bag/box/whatever) as something very different from tithing.

I thought tithing was part of the general principle of giving to God the firstfruits and thereby both acknowledging His provision and trusting He will continue to provide so we don't go short.

Also, don't I remember a scripture that talks about doing things in secret ... um ... (Mat 6:18) "that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." I'm sure there are others (Pharisee in the temple maybe?).

So, I'm not a great fan of public collections, but I am interested to know what our church thinks about giving of our firstfruits.

[Matthy]

I think it is mandatory to first seek the Scriptures on these matters before drawing any conclusions. So what would be your relevant NT quote on tithing?
BTW, what I don't understand in this context is why it's tithing that is "picked" from the mosaic law (Exodus and Deuteronomy) and not all the many other commands!? (Jm 2:10) What about e.g. Ex 22:30 or Ex 23:19b? Also, even law talks about voluntary giving (on top of the tithe): Ex 25:1-2, "a man whose heart moves him" to give.
Lets try to find out ourselves why tithing is somewhat outstanding from the rest of the mosaic laws! But first, back to your response.

Not having much experience or background in these matters, what I'm about to say might be quite wrong, but I see the weekly collection plate (bag/box/whatever) as something very different from tithing.

Very Different? To what extent? What is it then? (Not at least part of it?)

I thought tithing was part of the general principle of giving to God the firstfruits ...

I think giving 10% of your income (= tithing, Lev 27:30-33) and the firstfruits (Ex 23:19; Deut 18:4) were 2 different commands in the OT.

... and thereby both acknowledging His provision and trusting He will continue to provide so we don't go short.

I absolutely agree on that one. But what exactly would be your firstfruits? Do you still have fields, vineyards, cattle etc.? Or how would you apply this (firstfruits) into our modern life? And you have to "apply" it, you can't fulfil it literally, don't you?

Also, don't I remember a scripture that talks about doing things in secret ... um ... (Mat 6:18) "that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you." I'm sure there are others (Pharisee in the temple maybe?).

I'm sorry, I guess my words were a bit misleading in my initial statement. I didn't mean to say that it was done in secret, but it was neither done in public nor was it ever "announced" or even mentioned in public. What about this one: "so that your giving may be in secret" Mat 6:3-4?

So, I'm not a great fan of public collections, but I am interested to know what our church thinks about giving of our firstfruits.

That is a good question, and I'm not answering on behalf of the Church..... Yet again, as mentioned in my previous post, why not give God all our possessions, as the first Christians did in Jerusalem? Although I'm also interested in seeing what the Church (or better: the Elders) think about tithing, I'm more interested in finding out myself what the Scriptures teach about it. So far, I can tell you what I understand (that is not to say that I'm always living up to it), on top of what I said in my first post:

• we are not longer under the law, this includes tithing or giving the firstfruits
• that doesn't mean we now can do whatever we want, instead, we are asked to give our whole lives as living sacrifices for Him (Ro 12:1).
• in practical terms, it is certainly a good habit to give about 10 % of your income to God's work, wherever and whatever that might be
• same with your time, your skills, etc.

I saw that Mossy had registered with this forum, so hopefully he will soon spring to life! I found a nice article titled "6 reasons why Pastors should blog"; will send him that link!!! Maybe he gets the point.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1156_6_ ... ould_blog/

[Phil]

Trying not to feel as though I've been put through the wringer!

The reason I thought of tithing in the same, more general principle (not specific OT commandment (Tit 3:9!)) as firstfruits is that it relates to giving of one's INcome. So before you spend anything, you give 10% away - hence firstfruits. If you understand my reasoning (whether or not you agree with it), you'll see why I consider the collection plate as being different. Still, I did say I probably don't know what I'm talking about. However, pressing on ...

I consider my firstfruits as the first of anything God gives me. No I don't have fields or oxen, etc, etc, but I do have time and I try to spend the first part of it with Him before I begin other daily activities (not as regularly as I'd like to btw). Since He gives me everything I have, it applies to everything I've got.

[Matthy]

Trying not to feel as though I've been put through the wringer!

I'm deeply sorry for that. Really didn't want to make you feel that way. I just like to get to the bottom of things and so I am trying to understand what your reasoning is. Look, what you are saying further down - I can fully agree with, and it's exactly the kind of attitude I believe God wants us to have in these matters. However, when it is about teaching in Church - and that was your initial question, wasn't it? - then we can only teach from the authority of the Scriptures. And that's what I was trying to find out. Yet when it's about witnessing about our own, personal experiences, then we can rightly explain it the way you did.

Again, looking into the OT on those questions, it is interesting to note that tithing was already practised voluntarily before the law came into place:
Abraham: Gen 14:18-19,20 - Here Abram gave the tenth of his whole possessions to Melchizedek, see also Heb 7:4!
Jakob: Gen 28:22 - Here Jakob promises to give 10 % of his income to God: "of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you".

I also wonder whether the requirement to give the first fruits to God (Ex 22:29;23:16; Deu 26:2-10; ) is the same as the command about the "firstborn" (Ex 13:2,13;). The firstborn were always seen as of higher esteem and a particular blessing.

(will continue later)

[Phil]

Hey, it's okay!

The fact that we can express ourselves to each other (even if not terribly well on occasions!) is evidence of God working in and through us. Me feeling that way is only because of my pride, so I am deciding to thank Him for using your reply to show me that I still have much crucifying to do.

God is so awesome!

[Phil]

Really pleased we have had some teaching on tithing at Bible study this year http://www.ennisevangelicalchurch.org/biblestudies.htm (see 02 & 16 Feb) and that it has continued to be referred to as we've studied the Levitical Feasts more recently.

[Ediit Matthy:]
the correct link is: http://www.ennisevangelicalchurch.org/bible_studies.htm